A WonderCafe post:
I've just been reading an interesting book which aims to define a "Christian spirituality". The author's view of spirituality is that every person is powered by a life energy (I guess Christians would call it God's energy), and that what we choose to do with this energy is our spirituality.
He says that this energy is too wild and powerful to be handled all on our own; we either let it run away with us, in which case we end up being self-inflated and self-centered, or we try too hard to dampen it,in which case we become chronically depressed. So, this is how religion comes in - it gives us the guidelines and practices to help us balance this energy within us. Religion, therefore, enables a healthy spirituality.
He defines a healthy spirituality as the ability to experience a child-like delight in our lives; he also claims that the vast majority of adults in our society live lives of quiet depression (not clinical depression, mind you). And this is due in part of the collapse of religion in our lives.
I'm wondering what people's responses are to this definition of spirituality? And if this defintion doesn't fit with yours, how do you define spirituality?
“A quality that goes beyond religious affiliation, that strives for inspiration, reverence, awe, meaning, and purpose, even for those who do not believe in any god. The spiritual dimension tries to be in harmony with the universe, strives for answers about the infinite, and comes into focus when a person faces emotional stress, physical illness, and death.” (Brighton and South Downs Trust, cited in "Spirituality and Ageing" by Jewell, 1999).
Indeed, I shared the ideas from the beginning of Rolheiser's train of thought, which describe an over-arching paradigm of spirituality, without a specifically Christian perspective.
He does go on to outline 4 essential pillars for Christian spirituality, which of course reflect what EZ has been describing. They are:
a. private prayer and personal integrity
b. social justice
c. mellowness (gratefulness) of heart and spirit
d. community
He says that without all 4 pieces in place, we cannot have a healthy Christian spirituality.
December 31, 2006
December 07, 2006
Christian vs. Christ-follower
Here is a site shared on WonderCafe by Liquado
Liquado wrote: Awesome -- I love the parodies of the Apple ad campaign, and the laying of the smackdown on the "Christian" types. I don't tell people I'm "Christian," because I feel that word's been stolen from me by the fundies. Here's a little poke in the ribs to them. Enjoy!
Liquado wrote: Awesome -- I love the parodies of the Apple ad campaign, and the laying of the smackdown on the "Christian" types. I don't tell people I'm "Christian," because I feel that word's been stolen from me by the fundies. Here's a little poke in the ribs to them. Enjoy!
Sola Scriptura vs Wesley's methodism summary
This was posted by GospelCrazy on WonderCafe (Tue, Nov 14/06 05:31 pm) and I asked if I could quote him. He says it is not the best description, but off the top of the head in a nutshell summary. I find it helpful to know that it is an old tradition that was not invented by the United Church (contrary to some opinions stated on the site) but a well-thought out biblical approach.
The United Church does come from a reformed tradition, but it is also heavily influenced by John Wesley's "evangelical" methodism. Wesley was concerned with finding a way of being Christian that would speak to his people in his time and place, and he scoured every bit of tradtion he could get his hands on, including church fathers, Moravian theology, and parts of the Bible that were largely overlooked by the church leaders of his time. His criteria for it were: does it have authentic Christian background? and is it useful? A sort of pragmatic traditionalism.
Wesley taught four bases for theological reflection, so Sola Scriptura certainly does not apply to him. I have seen a number of UCC theologs referring to the four bases ("The Wesleyan Quadrilateral") in various threads on this forum.
The Wesleyan Quadrilateral is Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience. Various Methodist theologians have arranged the significance of these in various ways, but I believe (I stand to be corrected by those who are greater Wesley authorities than I) that he would have privileged Reason above the other three as the filter through which all else becomes meaningful.
I think this element of Wesley's teaching sheds a great deal of light on some of the conflicts that are taking place in this online community right now, as it is lived out in the lives of many UCC ministers and scholars and brings them into conflict with those who have a more reformed "Sola Scriptura" position.
I hope everything I have said is reasonably true to Wesley's actual teachings; I don't have my books with me. And I hope that this is helpful to you, Deo_gratias, in your attempts to better understand the United Church of Canada context.
Blessings,
Murray
The United Church does come from a reformed tradition, but it is also heavily influenced by John Wesley's "evangelical" methodism. Wesley was concerned with finding a way of being Christian that would speak to his people in his time and place, and he scoured every bit of tradtion he could get his hands on, including church fathers, Moravian theology, and parts of the Bible that were largely overlooked by the church leaders of his time. His criteria for it were: does it have authentic Christian background? and is it useful? A sort of pragmatic traditionalism.
Wesley taught four bases for theological reflection, so Sola Scriptura certainly does not apply to him. I have seen a number of UCC theologs referring to the four bases ("The Wesleyan Quadrilateral") in various threads on this forum.
The Wesleyan Quadrilateral is Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience. Various Methodist theologians have arranged the significance of these in various ways, but I believe (I stand to be corrected by those who are greater Wesley authorities than I) that he would have privileged Reason above the other three as the filter through which all else becomes meaningful.
I think this element of Wesley's teaching sheds a great deal of light on some of the conflicts that are taking place in this online community right now, as it is lived out in the lives of many UCC ministers and scholars and brings them into conflict with those who have a more reformed "Sola Scriptura" position.
I hope everything I have said is reasonably true to Wesley's actual teachings; I don't have my books with me. And I hope that this is helpful to you, Deo_gratias, in your attempts to better understand the United Church of Canada context.
Blessings,
Murray
Books to get you started
Here is the final list of books recommended in a discussion thread from WonderCafe. I have included ALL recommendations regardless of who posted them. People like EZ and RevJohn who posted a long list have had their names in the list as recommenders. I have a seperate section for fiction, and the only ranking I've done, other than that is putting the ones I'm familiar with near the beginning. Here it is and thanks to all the contributors!
MonAsksIt: Cracking The Cover - A Beginners Guide To The Bible by Ross Smillie
anything by Madeline L'Engle or Elizabeth Goudge or even Taylor Caldwell's "The Listener" (fiction) and Pilgrim’s Progress, a classic
Man's Search for Meaning Viktor Frankl
The Gospel According to Peanuts
The Heart of Christianity by Marcus Borg or Reading the Bible Again for the First Time
The Book of God: The Bible as a Novel by Walter Wangerin
This United Church of Ours by Ralph Milton
The Idiots Guide to the Bible
C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity
John Shelby Spong's Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism and Sins of Scripture
The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and the journals of Kierkegaard.
EZ Answer: "Christianity for Dummies" by Richard J. Wagner ISBN: 0764544829
"The Gospel According to The Simpsons: The Spiritual Life of the World's Most Animated Family" by Mark I. Pinsky, Tony Campolo (Foreword) ISBN: 0664224199
"Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal" by Christopher Moore ISBN: 0380813815
Rev John: Messy Spirituality: God's Annoying Love For Imperfect People by Mike Yaconelli.
Dangerous Wonders: The Adventure of Childlike Faith by Mike Yaconelli
What's So Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey
Grace Abounding To the Chief of Sinners by John Bunyan
Calvinism In The Las Vegas Airport by Richard J Mouw
Fiction: A Wrinkle in Time" (and the books that followed it) by Madeline L'Engle
The Deryni series by Katherine Kurtz
Narnia books, Screwtape Letters, the Planet series by C.S. Lewis
Phillip Pullman's Golden Compass
God for Beginners
Stormie Omartian's books The Power of a Praying (includes The Power of a Praying Wife, Parent and Woman).
TRAVELING MERCIES or Plan B by Anne Lamotts
The Purpose Driven Life" by Warren. (note, this is a rather conservative book)
PrazGod: The Word of God first, and then may I recommend the following:
- The Imitation of Christ - by Thomas A Kempis
- The Liturgy of Hours (also known as Breviary, Divine Office) - prayer
- The Perfect Prayer Book: My daily psalm book - arranged by Fr. Frey
- Living Faith day by day: How the sacred rules of Monastic traditions can help you live spirituality in the modern world - by Debra K Farrington
- Diary: Divine Mercy in my soul - by St. Faustina Kowalska
- Practicing basic Spiritual Disciplines - by Charles Stanley
- Catechism of the Catholic Church
- Heart of Joy: The transforming power of self giving - by Mother Teresa
- FromGenesis to Revelatioin: Seven Scriptural Rosaries - by Christine Haapala
- How to Listen to God -by Charles Stanley
-Visions of the Children - by J Connell
MonAsksIt: Cracking The Cover - A Beginners Guide To The Bible by Ross Smillie
anything by Madeline L'Engle or Elizabeth Goudge or even Taylor Caldwell's "The Listener" (fiction) and Pilgrim’s Progress, a classic
Man's Search for Meaning Viktor Frankl
The Gospel According to Peanuts
The Heart of Christianity by Marcus Borg or Reading the Bible Again for the First Time
The Book of God: The Bible as a Novel by Walter Wangerin
This United Church of Ours by Ralph Milton
The Idiots Guide to the Bible
C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity
John Shelby Spong's Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism and Sins of Scripture
The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and the journals of Kierkegaard.
EZ Answer: "Christianity for Dummies" by Richard J. Wagner ISBN: 0764544829
"The Gospel According to The Simpsons: The Spiritual Life of the World's Most Animated Family" by Mark I. Pinsky, Tony Campolo (Foreword) ISBN: 0664224199
"Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal" by Christopher Moore ISBN: 0380813815
Rev John: Messy Spirituality: God's Annoying Love For Imperfect People by Mike Yaconelli.
Dangerous Wonders: The Adventure of Childlike Faith by Mike Yaconelli
What's So Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey
Grace Abounding To the Chief of Sinners by John Bunyan
Calvinism In The Las Vegas Airport by Richard J Mouw
Fiction: A Wrinkle in Time" (and the books that followed it) by Madeline L'Engle
The Deryni series by Katherine Kurtz
Narnia books, Screwtape Letters, the Planet series by C.S. Lewis
Phillip Pullman's Golden Compass
God for Beginners
Stormie Omartian's books The Power of a Praying (includes The Power of a Praying Wife, Parent and Woman).
TRAVELING MERCIES or Plan B by Anne Lamotts
The Purpose Driven Life" by Warren. (note, this is a rather conservative book)
PrazGod: The Word of God first, and then may I recommend the following:
- The Imitation of Christ - by Thomas A Kempis
- The Liturgy of Hours (also known as Breviary, Divine Office) - prayer
- The Perfect Prayer Book: My daily psalm book - arranged by Fr. Frey
- Living Faith day by day: How the sacred rules of Monastic traditions can help you live spirituality in the modern world - by Debra K Farrington
- Diary: Divine Mercy in my soul - by St. Faustina Kowalska
- Practicing basic Spiritual Disciplines - by Charles Stanley
- Catechism of the Catholic Church
- Heart of Joy: The transforming power of self giving - by Mother Teresa
- FromGenesis to Revelatioin: Seven Scriptural Rosaries - by Christine Haapala
- How to Listen to God -by Charles Stanley
-Visions of the Children - by J Connell
December 06, 2006
Sermon by Rev. Dale Irving on our Affirming Service
Breaking Barriers
Reign of Christ Sunday, November 26, 2006
Scripture: Revelation 1: 4-8, John 18: 33 - 38
Is anybody puzzled by the use of the scripture from John’s Gospel this morning? It actually seems like it is better suited to Good Friday, or Passion Sunday, doesn’t it? However, today is the last Sunday in the long season after Pentecost that is often called “Reign of Christ Sunday” or “Christ the King Sunday”. When I first looked at it, it didn’t really seem appropriate to our celebration of becoming an Affirming Congregation; but the more I thought about it, the more it seemed to be exactly the right lesson for today.
Jesus is before Pilate. Here we see the meeting of two empires. Pilate the procurator embodies the power of Rome. Jesus, the prisoner, embodies spiritual power. Pilate, powerful in his official capacity, is personally a weak and insecure person. Jesus, a prisoner without any political or official power, is entirely in control, not only of himself but of the entire situation.
“Are you the King of the Jews?” asks Pilate. The reply he receives must have been startling. "Do you ask this on your own, or did others tell you about me?” It shows no sign of fear or subservience. The question is from equal to equal. The conversation goes on and then Jesus says: “I came into the world, to testify to the truth.” “What is truth?” asks Pilate.
“What is truth, indeed?” Since the earliest days of the Church, the Spirit has continued to teach the Church, and to empower it for witness to the Gospel in a changing world. Once, we accepted slavery, concluding from the Old Testament that people of colour were clearly the sons and daughters of Ham, destined to be hewers of wood and carriers of water. But the Spirit had more to teach us, and that which we once justified from Scripture, we now repudiate. “ What is truth?”
When Sharon and I were at St. Andrew’s United Church in Sydney, there was an honorary elder, who used to tell me whenever he got the chance that the church started to go downhill on the day that women were permitted to become elders, members of the session. There was a day when women were not permitted to attend Church meetings, and most certainly not to hold office and their exclusion was justified on the basis of biblical teaching that the man was to be head of the woman as Christ is head of the Church, and that women are to be silent in church. The Spirit had more to teach us! “What is truth?”
For centuries the Church required in marriage that wives obey their husbands. But the Spirit had more to teach us. Similar justification was later used for the exclusion of women from the Order of Ministry until Lydia Gruchie was ordained in 1936. But it was more than 20 years later that married women were permitted to be in active ministry and be married. The Spirit had more to teach us. And today we welcome women to all aspects of Church life. “What is truth?”
In 1980, the Division of Ministry Personnel and Education of The United Church of Canada was in a panic. Rumour had it that a candidate for ministry was planning to ‘come out’ and declare his homosexual orientation during the final interview leading to Ordination. How would the church respond to this announcement? I, along with seven others, was invited to become part of a Task Group that was to study this matter on behalf of the church and report to the General Council at its meeting in Morden, MB in 1984. It took until 1988 when the church decided that all persons, regardless of sexual orientation were eligible to be considered for ministry. The Spirit had more to teach us. “What is truth?”
We continue to try to discern what the Spirit is saying to the Church in our context and in our time. In 2003, the General Council spoke strongly in favour of supporting equal marriage in order that loving relationships between same-gender partners could be considered as legitimate as heterosexual marriage. Do we accept the Scriptural texts as being both relevant and binding, or does the Spirit have yet more to teach us through modern science and the cries of yet another minority longing for full inclusion in the body of Christ? “What is truth?”
We need the Spirit to remind us of our history - of the trials and struggles that brought into being that part of the Church we have come to know and love. We need the Spirit to teach us that we are now a multicultural family of independent Churches, and that that calls for respect for a variety of responses to the Gospel in different contexts. We need the Spirit to help us understand how the love of God in Jesus Christ is revealed for our time through the record of Scripture. “What is truth?”
Back in the 1980s homosexual people who were part of the United Church of Canada began to ask that they be considered full members to whom all the offices of the church, including ordered ministry, were open. While most people in The United Church would not admit to having anything against gays and lesbians and it was generally agreed that they were perfectly welcome to sit in our pews, maybe even sing in the choir, as long as they didn't draw attention to themselves and make trouble.
When people who are a part of the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered Communities decided they would no longer settle for this kind of "don't ask, don't tell" toleration, our benevolence was severely tested. We ought never to forget what it cost many people to force us to think about what we did not want to think about and act when we would rather have done nothing.
Gradually the church has started to recognize that the social conventions of the Biblical ages are not the unchanging Word of God. Throughout the years, whenever we have discovered new possibilities for human liberation and for more abundant life, we have eventually embraced them. The Bible prohibits lenders from charging interest, assumes that government is led by kings and that slavery is part of the way things are, that women should be silent and obedient, and that divorce and remarriage are forbidden. But we've seen new possibilities of grace and over time we have been able to change our traditions; however, it has not been without struggle.
We've had conflict and disagreement at every step. Good, sincere, faithful Bible-believing Christians have lined up on both sides of these issues -- Can Gentiles become Christians? Can eunuchs be baptized? Can we allow economic activity fueled by borrowing at interest? Do only kings have a divine right to rule? Shall slaves be free? Shall women serve on Sessions, read the lessons in church, become ministers? Can divorced people be remarried? Shall black people be equal? Can people of diverse sexual orientations be fully a part of our churches?
I believe that the full inclusion of gay people in the life of our church and our society is as inevitable and as God-energized as the full inclusion of the uncircumcised, slaves, women and people of color has been. I believe it is the work of God’s Spirit and it is ultimately irresistible. “What is truth?”
I look forward to the day when children who are different are no longer teased, but are accepted. I foresee a time when all people can date and fall in love and give themselves to another person regardless of their sexual orientation with the full support of their church and an understanding society. I look forward to living in a society when we no longer oppress lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered people and people of other sexual identities, so that they feel they must live in closets. I look forward to a day when we draw a wider circle and cross a line that will allow all people regardless of their sexual identity to commit themselves to the church's values and participate fully in all aspects of the church’s life.
Today, in Mill Woods United Church we have crossed a line. Today, old barriers lose their power, old wounds lose their sting. Today, as we gather our collective courage and our good will, healing is possible because we gather to celebrate something larger than ourselves.
Today we celebrate not only that Mill Woods United Church has become an Affirming Congregation within The United Church of Canada, but the love of our God that invites us all to cross the line, to stay back no longer, to step into healing, and into hope and into joy.
Today, we cross that line. Yes, the Spirit still has more to teach us. We will continue to struggle with Pilate’s question “What is truth?” and in so doing we will open ourselves to the possibility that even more barriers can come down and we can more fully become the people God intends us to be in our time and place.
Reign of Christ Sunday, November 26, 2006
Scripture: Revelation 1: 4-8, John 18: 33 - 38
Is anybody puzzled by the use of the scripture from John’s Gospel this morning? It actually seems like it is better suited to Good Friday, or Passion Sunday, doesn’t it? However, today is the last Sunday in the long season after Pentecost that is often called “Reign of Christ Sunday” or “Christ the King Sunday”. When I first looked at it, it didn’t really seem appropriate to our celebration of becoming an Affirming Congregation; but the more I thought about it, the more it seemed to be exactly the right lesson for today.
Jesus is before Pilate. Here we see the meeting of two empires. Pilate the procurator embodies the power of Rome. Jesus, the prisoner, embodies spiritual power. Pilate, powerful in his official capacity, is personally a weak and insecure person. Jesus, a prisoner without any political or official power, is entirely in control, not only of himself but of the entire situation.
“Are you the King of the Jews?” asks Pilate. The reply he receives must have been startling. "Do you ask this on your own, or did others tell you about me?” It shows no sign of fear or subservience. The question is from equal to equal. The conversation goes on and then Jesus says: “I came into the world, to testify to the truth.” “What is truth?” asks Pilate.
“What is truth, indeed?” Since the earliest days of the Church, the Spirit has continued to teach the Church, and to empower it for witness to the Gospel in a changing world. Once, we accepted slavery, concluding from the Old Testament that people of colour were clearly the sons and daughters of Ham, destined to be hewers of wood and carriers of water. But the Spirit had more to teach us, and that which we once justified from Scripture, we now repudiate. “ What is truth?”
When Sharon and I were at St. Andrew’s United Church in Sydney, there was an honorary elder, who used to tell me whenever he got the chance that the church started to go downhill on the day that women were permitted to become elders, members of the session. There was a day when women were not permitted to attend Church meetings, and most certainly not to hold office and their exclusion was justified on the basis of biblical teaching that the man was to be head of the woman as Christ is head of the Church, and that women are to be silent in church. The Spirit had more to teach us! “What is truth?”
For centuries the Church required in marriage that wives obey their husbands. But the Spirit had more to teach us. Similar justification was later used for the exclusion of women from the Order of Ministry until Lydia Gruchie was ordained in 1936. But it was more than 20 years later that married women were permitted to be in active ministry and be married. The Spirit had more to teach us. And today we welcome women to all aspects of Church life. “What is truth?”
In 1980, the Division of Ministry Personnel and Education of The United Church of Canada was in a panic. Rumour had it that a candidate for ministry was planning to ‘come out’ and declare his homosexual orientation during the final interview leading to Ordination. How would the church respond to this announcement? I, along with seven others, was invited to become part of a Task Group that was to study this matter on behalf of the church and report to the General Council at its meeting in Morden, MB in 1984. It took until 1988 when the church decided that all persons, regardless of sexual orientation were eligible to be considered for ministry. The Spirit had more to teach us. “What is truth?”
We continue to try to discern what the Spirit is saying to the Church in our context and in our time. In 2003, the General Council spoke strongly in favour of supporting equal marriage in order that loving relationships between same-gender partners could be considered as legitimate as heterosexual marriage. Do we accept the Scriptural texts as being both relevant and binding, or does the Spirit have yet more to teach us through modern science and the cries of yet another minority longing for full inclusion in the body of Christ? “What is truth?”
We need the Spirit to remind us of our history - of the trials and struggles that brought into being that part of the Church we have come to know and love. We need the Spirit to teach us that we are now a multicultural family of independent Churches, and that that calls for respect for a variety of responses to the Gospel in different contexts. We need the Spirit to help us understand how the love of God in Jesus Christ is revealed for our time through the record of Scripture. “What is truth?”
Back in the 1980s homosexual people who were part of the United Church of Canada began to ask that they be considered full members to whom all the offices of the church, including ordered ministry, were open. While most people in The United Church would not admit to having anything against gays and lesbians and it was generally agreed that they were perfectly welcome to sit in our pews, maybe even sing in the choir, as long as they didn't draw attention to themselves and make trouble.
When people who are a part of the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered Communities decided they would no longer settle for this kind of "don't ask, don't tell" toleration, our benevolence was severely tested. We ought never to forget what it cost many people to force us to think about what we did not want to think about and act when we would rather have done nothing.
Gradually the church has started to recognize that the social conventions of the Biblical ages are not the unchanging Word of God. Throughout the years, whenever we have discovered new possibilities for human liberation and for more abundant life, we have eventually embraced them. The Bible prohibits lenders from charging interest, assumes that government is led by kings and that slavery is part of the way things are, that women should be silent and obedient, and that divorce and remarriage are forbidden. But we've seen new possibilities of grace and over time we have been able to change our traditions; however, it has not been without struggle.
We've had conflict and disagreement at every step. Good, sincere, faithful Bible-believing Christians have lined up on both sides of these issues -- Can Gentiles become Christians? Can eunuchs be baptized? Can we allow economic activity fueled by borrowing at interest? Do only kings have a divine right to rule? Shall slaves be free? Shall women serve on Sessions, read the lessons in church, become ministers? Can divorced people be remarried? Shall black people be equal? Can people of diverse sexual orientations be fully a part of our churches?
I believe that the full inclusion of gay people in the life of our church and our society is as inevitable and as God-energized as the full inclusion of the uncircumcised, slaves, women and people of color has been. I believe it is the work of God’s Spirit and it is ultimately irresistible. “What is truth?”
I look forward to the day when children who are different are no longer teased, but are accepted. I foresee a time when all people can date and fall in love and give themselves to another person regardless of their sexual orientation with the full support of their church and an understanding society. I look forward to living in a society when we no longer oppress lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered people and people of other sexual identities, so that they feel they must live in closets. I look forward to a day when we draw a wider circle and cross a line that will allow all people regardless of their sexual identity to commit themselves to the church's values and participate fully in all aspects of the church’s life.
Today, in Mill Woods United Church we have crossed a line. Today, old barriers lose their power, old wounds lose their sting. Today, as we gather our collective courage and our good will, healing is possible because we gather to celebrate something larger than ourselves.
Today we celebrate not only that Mill Woods United Church has become an Affirming Congregation within The United Church of Canada, but the love of our God that invites us all to cross the line, to stay back no longer, to step into healing, and into hope and into joy.
Today, we cross that line. Yes, the Spirit still has more to teach us. We will continue to struggle with Pilate’s question “What is truth?” and in so doing we will open ourselves to the possibility that even more barriers can come down and we can more fully become the people God intends us to be in our time and place.
November 30, 2006
Affirming Celebration!
We did it, finally! Mill Woods United Church in Edmonton held a great celebratory service last Sunday morning to mark becoming an official Affirming Congregation. This is the first congregation to do so in 8 years in Alberta NorthWest Conference (including parts of BC and the territories), and only the second ever. Hopefully there will be more churches hoisting the rainbow banner over our steeples and store fronts. We have heard stories of teens whose lives were saved by seeing the rainbow sign on a church door. Suicide is the number one cause of death for young people who are struggling with their sexual identity, and after hearing the stories of what GLTB individuals have gone through, I know that there is no way they would have chosen to be so different and so shunned by society. It is like blaming lepers for their leprosy or hermaphrodites for being born with anatomical duplications. To hear these people talk about being ostrasized by their churches, condemned, alienated and hated, is to hear the voices of the outcasts and Samaritans that Jesus reached a hand of love to. We celebrated that they are a part of God's creation, that they are a part of our family, and that we together are in community to build a sanctuary for all. Our website is www.millwoodsunited.org if you are interested in hearing more.
November 20, 2006
Worship of Jesus vs God
Here, in a nutshell is a statement that explains to me what a fundamentalist believes:
Automan wrote in Worship of Jesus vs God on WonderCafe.ca
"Jesus Christ IS the Word of God. The Word of God IS God. The Word of God became flesh and dwelt among us. He was crucified and rose, and then sent HIS Spirit to DWELL WITHIN US.
If you do not have that, you have nothing.
We worship God through Jesus Christ the Son. Otherwise God hears nothing of us."
This translates to me
- The bible is the Word of God (true and indisputable, inspired by God, unchangeable and without fault)
- Jesus fulfills the word of God (Ten Commandments and other lists of rules are superseded by Jesus' Grace etc.)
- The Word of God IS God (Do what the Bible says and you are accountable to God).
- Jesus was the living Bible
- When risen, the Bible lives in spirit in us (Jesus, the word, God, all live in us in the Word, or the Bible).
- God cannot communicate with us because we are sinful. Therefore we must communicate with God through Jesus (or, I am guessing, by reading the Word of God?).
What this ALL boils down to is that if you believe the bible you are right with God. How do you interpret the Bible? Go ask your preacher. He will fill you in on what it means. It is far too important for you to decide what it means for yourself.
That certainly explains why they have so much trouble with our interpretation of the Bible and why they don't call us Christians.
November 16, 2006
Science and the bible
I found this link on Wondercafe today, a youtube video interview with Reverend Ted Haggart and Richard Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist and author of The Selfish Gene. The video is interesting and scary, but sad and funny in a way as well, since Ted's male friend recently revealed the Pastor's interest in same sex massages, etc. In the end, it will be the congregation members that suffer the most I think, for they felt that they had a personal relationship with him that bouyed up their faith. But in some ways it sounds much more like a cult than a church, with the focus around a charismatic leader, chanting in unison, emotional highs and intoxicating music. But I'm no expert on cults, nor should I judge fundamentalists. Although I have a good lightbulb joke...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUi6dhwWx0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUi6dhwWx0
November 15, 2006
Sermon Starters
These are some of the sermon topics that EZed Squirrel garnered from WonderCafe members:
For all you preachers out there, here is a list worthy of your consideration:
The true meaning of life
How to find your purpose in the world
Multi-faith expressions around peace and militant non-violence
Who's view of religion is right and why that is so
Nativity story as just that: story
Easter story as just that: story
What "right" means
Greed
The damage done by Biblical literalism
The need for reflection and journey
The "good life".
What to look for in a mate
How to be better parents/neighbours
Whether ethical funds are truly a good short-term investment
monasksit Wed, Nov 15/0602:40 pm: Hi, EZ, can I pass these on to my minister? He's already done the Easter and Nativity stories, and led book studies on Borg and Spong.
EZed Wed, Nov 15/0603:45 pm: EZ Answer: Yes...just send a cheque made out to EZ...never mind...you're family, so there's no cost.
As a sidebar, I think EZ is a definate asset to WonderCafe - cute, cuddly, asks good questions, and has a sense of humor as well!
For all you preachers out there, here is a list worthy of your consideration:
The true meaning of life
How to find your purpose in the world
Multi-faith expressions around peace and militant non-violence
Who's view of religion is right and why that is so
Nativity story as just that: story
Easter story as just that: story
What "right" means
Greed
The damage done by Biblical literalism
The need for reflection and journey
The "good life".
What to look for in a mate
How to be better parents/neighbours
Whether ethical funds are truly a good short-term investment
monasksit Wed, Nov 15/0602:40 pm: Hi, EZ, can I pass these on to my minister? He's already done the Easter and Nativity stories, and led book studies on Borg and Spong.
EZed Wed, Nov 15/0603:45 pm: EZ Answer: Yes...just send a cheque made out to EZ...never mind...you're family, so there's no cost.
As a sidebar, I think EZ is a definate asset to WonderCafe - cute, cuddly, asks good questions, and has a sense of humor as well!
Study of Gems
Here is my first example of a Gem that I don't want to lose track of:
MostlyMike,
Thank you for sharing the study pdf. It has helped me put the commonly quoted sections of the Bible into the proper perspective. For reference, this document discusses:
"There are six Bible accounts that have been used in recent years in reference to homosexuality. These include:
Genesis 1-2 (Creation Account)
Genesis 19:1-9 (Sodom Account)
Leviticus 18:22, 20:13 (Holiness Code)
Romans 1:24-27 (Letter of Paul)
1 Corinthians 6:9 (Letter of Paul)
1 Timothy 1:10 (Letter of Paul)"
(taken from http://truthsetsfree.net/study.pdf)
I have heard Corinthians, Leviticus and Romans used.
It is a bit surprising that Jesus doesn't speak directly to this issue.
Leviticus
Leviticus - the OT book on rules and regulations.
I found this quoted on WonderCafe and loved it.
"(Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.
The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative):
"Dear Dr. Laura:
"Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
"I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)
"I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,
Jack"
I (Mon the blogger) also added the following observation based on one part I stumbled upon when I read Leviticus. As I have a teen-age son, it really made me think. So much for the statement I have heard that murder is condemned in the Bible.
11. Why can't I get my teenage son stoned by the community when he defies my requests to obey me (ie. do his homework, take out the garbage and clean his room)? Why do I have to wait for his father to do this? And how come there's no rules about stoning disobedient teenage daughters?
I found this quoted on WonderCafe and loved it.
"(Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.
The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative):
"Dear Dr. Laura:
"Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
"I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)
"I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,
Jack"
I (Mon the blogger) also added the following observation based on one part I stumbled upon when I read Leviticus. As I have a teen-age son, it really made me think. So much for the statement I have heard that murder is condemned in the Bible.
11. Why can't I get my teenage son stoned by the community when he defies my requests to obey me (ie. do his homework, take out the garbage and clean his room)? Why do I have to wait for his father to do this? And how come there's no rules about stoning disobedient teenage daughters?
Wonder Cafe
Hi and welcome to our discussion. Mo and I have been posting like crazy on WonderCafe.ca and we like the site a lot. There are lots of really good discussions happening and there are a few people who are interested in finding out what's behind the new advertising campaign sponsored by the United Church of Canada.
The site is very professional and I have yet to see it break down (except due to heavy traffic on the first day) in any way. The site does have some technical limitations though.
Mo and I thought we might chronicle our discussions on Wonder Cafe and rescue the gems we have found there for our future reference. Rather than do that in a word document, we thought we would share them with anyone who was interested.
Posting will likely be infrequent. We intend to invite other local people to our list of contributors. Comments will be available but moderated. This is our site after all. For full discussions, WonderCafe.ca is open to all.
The site is very professional and I have yet to see it break down (except due to heavy traffic on the first day) in any way. The site does have some technical limitations though.
Mo and I thought we might chronicle our discussions on Wonder Cafe and rescue the gems we have found there for our future reference. Rather than do that in a word document, we thought we would share them with anyone who was interested.
Posting will likely be infrequent. We intend to invite other local people to our list of contributors. Comments will be available but moderated. This is our site after all. For full discussions, WonderCafe.ca is open to all.
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